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Forum topic/blog entry started by KNO3 on 4/14/2006 7:42:17 (server time).
This topic has been viewed 101296 times.

           
           

KNO3 Potassium Nitrate Salt peter or whatever...


About Potassium nitrate, Saltpeter (of chile), Sodium nitrate... KNO3!

http://groups.google.ro/group/alt.engr.explosives/browse_thread/thread/acad0a1fdeebb4bd/13447f752fbea02f?lnk=st&q=how+to+make+potassium+nitrate&rnum=4&hl=ro#13447f752fbea02f

http://groups.google.ro/group/rec.pyrotechnics/browse_thread/thread/305b0c971c99f21/8f259c4bb39e5579?lnk=st&q=how+to+make+potassium+nitrate&rnum=5&hl=ro#8f259c4bb39e5579

http://www.rotteneggs.com/r3/show/se/17329.html

http://groups.google.ro/group/rec.pyrotechnics/browse_thread/thread/8face48689e7a92a/79167900d8262482?lnk=st&q=how+to+make+potassium+nitrate&rnum=1&hl=ro#79167900d8262482

http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Campus/5361/kno3/kno3.html

I live in Romania and KNO3 is pretty hard to find. From these recipies i found i've noticed comments that it takes alot of work and time to make a few amounts of KNO3.

About the stump killer. You said it has from 90%-99% KNO3. Will it work with smoke bombs/rocket fuel fine?

If anyone found any other recipies on how to make KNO3 other than mine, please post the link/info.

Thank you.
Reply from/
Date
Replies
SmoKe

4/14/2006 8:26:39
What is this stump killer, what does it do... So i can go and buy it from the flower shop.
Andrew

4/14/2006 9:54:25
Is this stump killer liquid or solid? Can we use it directly as KNO3?
Marshall

5/6/2006 10:26:36
hello,

 I wanted to ask is anyone know what is the white harden powder in the commercial fire-arrow--totally white? It is very reactive and it explodes when I burn it.Do you know how to make it so that i can use it for my rocket propellant? Normally, it is used by the rocket amateurs.....

Waitng,
Marshall.lcl
FON BRUNE

6/29/2006 8:58:54
HELLO
I AM TRYING TO MAKE A REALY POWERFUL SOLID FUEL ROCKET AND I WANT TO FIND A POWERFUL AND EASY TO MAKE FUEL AND THAT'S BECAUSE I HAVE MADE A REALY STRONG BYT HEAVY ROCKET MY ROCKET IS ABOUT 1METER, HAS A DIAMETER ABOUT 8.4CM AND WEIGHTS ABOYT8KILOS SO IF YOY HAVE A REALY STRONG FORMULA FOR MY ROCKET PLEASE TELL ME HOW TO MAKE THE FORMULA. NOTE THAT MY ROCKET IS MADE FROM IRON AND ME WELDINGS ARE STRONG. SO PLEASE GIVE ME THE MOST POWERFUL FORMULA THAT YOU HAVE.
Printing view
gorbonzo

8/25/2006 2:32:41
kno3 (saltpeter) is a white powder. it SHOULD work to make smokebombs and stuff, but im not sure how it is made in romania. a different way to get saltpeter is to just get it from a pharmacy. or you can get it from fertilizer (do not use this method if you are a beginner...oklahoma bombings...made from fertilizer) look for the numbers 13-0-40 i think thats it....
appleoz

9/7/2006 11:30:18
try this,  C2H6KNO4S

KNO3 + S + C2H6O

KNO3= 56.41%
S= 17.89%
C2H6O= 25.70%

thats potassium nitrate, sulfur and ethanol (100% alcohol)

because it mostly solid it should become a paste when combined over a LOW heat DO NOT make in a kitchen only outside.
appleoz

9/7/2006 11:34:27
in large enough amounts the C2H6KNO4S formula should be strong enough, it gives you the power of a liquid fuel enigine without the trouble of actually making one.

I have not tried the formula on a 8 kilo rocket before just give it a try,

STAND WELL BACK WHEN EXPERIMENTING WITH AMOUNTS, START SMALL AND BUILD UP TILL YOU GET REQUIRED LIFT, TO MUCH AND YOU MAKE A GRENADE WITH RED HOT IRON SHRAPNEL
Pargariu

9/27/2006 8:51:06
Yeah, I know what you feel... I live in Romania too and it's way too hard to get some KNO3. I have a pyromaniac friend (like myself) who obtained like 200 grams of KNO3 from what we made a pretty nice smokebomb.
We actually filmed it: http://pcsaby.uw.hu/Fustbomba%2020060420.avi
I searched on the internet to find a place to buy some KNO3, but with no results. I can't afford to buy it from USA or any other foreign country (and I'm not even sure they would send it here), so I'm out of smokebombs for now.
If somebody knows a place in Romania, where I could buy some KNO3, plese let me know, I want to make a huge smokebomb for New Years Eve. ;-)
auzzie

10/27/2006 12:49:26
hi

i live in australia and its hard to find KNO3 here aswell. but i found a heaps seedy fertilizer dealer and i bought 50kg and im 17! just keep lookin round. go to whole salers and distributors
alex

11/26/2006 4:37:11
i am a rocketry enginer and u no nothing about what u are doing if u have a roccket weighing that much u are mad u cant u will need a m or n motor to do that but u need to make sure the roc is areodynamic
if we work on the law of f=ma u have completly *!$#ed it up try harder make sure your fins are alinged and tha u do all the paer work first i am only 14 and i can builed a 7 foot rocket going 1500 feet in the air or one going 500 m
justin

12/21/2006 9:57:29
im making potassium but whant to no if you have to have s__t in the mixture.
what im using is a mixture of amonia'urine'dead grass and vegetables that have flamented accompanied by soil to add nitrongen, will this be good enought mixture for extracting potassium?
revetria2

1/5/2007 8:03:02
sorry that last reply was my fault... but anyway the stumpremover is good for smokebombs i have done that before. it is a solid , that normally is in little balls/clumps it is a pain to crush it into powder. by the way if you do make smokebombs be carefull when they a working my friend and i were messing with homemade smokebombs we put 2 of them off at the same time it worked ok for a second then we got real close to them and they exploded on us it didnt really hurt but we were scared by the flying pices but it was fun that was on holloween its newfears and we still have the burn marks on our arms and my neck but when we see them we laugh
Hamish

4/30/2007 10:58:06
To Alex,

Do you seriously believe that people will think you are a rocket engineer at 14? And if we work with F=MA, (rearanged to A= F/M for ease of use,) With anything over 8000N of force it will lift off, which with a rocket propalent shouldnt be TOO hard to achieve. And no one is dumb enough to believe that a 14 year old made a 7 foot rocket, your science teacher or daddy maybe, but dont claim it if you were just watching. Also on a side note learn to bloody type. And people for christ sake leave your caps lock key off, its an eyesore.

pyrostar

5/1/2007 12:40:59
hi duedes

how can i make my own KNO3 from ammoniumnitrate( got it from freezing packs)???

pyrostar
John


6/25/2007 4:45:26
Auzzie where you live? i live in Adeliade do you know where i can get some KN03
Matt


6/29/2007 11:31:07
Hey john i too live in boring adelaide, and am trying too gather KNO3 it's damn hard over here! but have tryed ebay as alast esort but seemed to have lost a good 55$ have been tryin gfor 2 years lol! and am almost in mech enginering, hopefully they'll know something.
max


6/30/2007 5:57:31
to make potassium nitrate is very very esey.

all you need is:

-3.5 gallons of nitrate bearing earth or other material
-1/2 cup of wood ashes
-Bucket or other similar container about 4-5 gallons in volume
-2 pieces of finely woven cloth, each a bit bigger than the
 bottom of the bucket
-Shallow dish or pan at least as large in diameter as the bucket
-Shallow, heat resistant container
-2 gallons of water
-Something to punch holes in the bottom of the bucket
-1 gallon of any type of alcohol
-A heat source
-Paper & tape

Procedure:

- Punch holes on the inside bottom of the bucket, so that the
metal is"puckered" outward from the bottom

- Spread cloth over the holes from the bottom

- Place wood ashes on the cloth. Spread it out so that it covers
the entire cloth and has about the same thickness.

- Place 2nd cloth on top of the wood ashes

- Place the dirt or other material in the bucket

- Place the bucket over the shallow container. NOTE: It may need
support on the bottom so that the holes on the bottom are not
blocked.

- Boil water and pour it over the earth very slowly. Do NOT pour
it all at once, as this will clog the filter on the bottom.

- Allow water to run through holes into the shallow dish on the
bottom.

- Be sure that the water goes through ALL of the earth!

- Allow water in dish to cool for an hour or so

- Carefully drain the liquid in the dish away, and discard the
sludge in the bottom

- Boil this liquid over a fire for at least two hours. Small
grains of salt will form - scoop these out with the paper as they
form

- When the liquid has boiled down to 1/2 its original volume let
it sit

- After 1/2 hour, add equal volume of the alcohol; when this
mixture is poured through paper, small white crystals appear. This
is the posassium nitrate.

Purification:

- Redissolve crystals in small amount of boiling water

- Remove any crystals that appear

- Pour through improvised filter then heat concentrated solution
to dryness.

- Spread out crystals and allow to dry






farmer bob


7/1/2007 10:15:59

kn03 is easy to find. i bought a 30kg sack from an agricultural suppy store for probably about $35. the type that sells fertiliser and fencing wire and weed killer etc. for explosives use its pretty low down on the 'terrorist' scale. admittedly they looked at me slightly funny since it was in late 2001. this was in darwin but i cant imagine it should be any harder to find elsewhere...

maybe get out of the city where there are more likely to be stores that cater to the agriculture industry.
brodie


8/19/2007 2:45:00
haha ive got potasium nitrate and i live in aus victoria

[Posted from : AUSTRALIA]
Ryan Johnson


8/28/2007 4:35:13
Hey there,

I too live in adelaide and am into rocketry.  3 years ago I was able to buy 25kg of Kno3 without issues, however these days im being given the run-around.

Any pointers as to where in adelaide this is still available?

Ryan

[Posted from : UNITED STATES]
connor


9/13/2007 6:54:25
I have 2 questions to ask . Is espom salts really kno3. has anyone ever tryed it . and i am 13 and willing to purchase kno3 from someone in nj u.s I willl do it throew the mail i al talking 1 dollar for 2 spoons ful

[Posted from : UNITED STATES]
brodie


9/21/2007 10:22:43
hey i live in australia and i just go down to the epping bunnings in melbourne and buy it in 30 kilo bags 4 $40 bucks



[Posted from : UNITED STATES]
pickle_64


10/9/2007 5:47:14
hey i live in australia and i just go down to the epping bunnings in melbourne and buy it in 30 kilo bags 4 $40 bucks

[Posted from : UNITED STATES]


so you live in australia but for some reason, you posted it in the United States?
hmmmm......

[Posted from : UNITED STATES]
rhys


10/13/2007 10:01:53
hi and if u live in aussie (woo australia) you should come to my place i hav tones of KNO3 so heres my email   hiyoevery1 at hotmail.com
giv me ur address and ill send u some........... for a small fee-

[Posted from : UNITED STATES]
rhys


10/13/2007 10:16:39
sorry im just tying in the box and hiting submitand i live in nsw-nowra

[Posted from : UNITED STATES]
barry


10/25/2007 10:05:43
hi i live in victoria australia. Im so friggin desperate to find KN03 i will pay top dollar if anyone can supply me with some!!!!!

[Posted from : UNITED STATES]
SatansPetCat


12/11/2007 5:50:11
All you guys from Australia are Stupid. All you have to do is go to www.kno3.com and buy as much as you want. You might get a phone call from the Federal police though when it arrives in Australia. That happened to me but all is well, they handed it over in the end

[Posted from : UNITED STATES]
Tom


12/12/2007 8:45:04
I live in the Netherlands, here you can buy all tha shit you need for a good rocket proppelant. in tha meanwhile i smoke the dutch green stuff and wiating for a friend to bring in the colombian white stuff ../ hehe..  all that brings me to higher places....

Grtz
Tom

[Posted from : UNITED STATES]
mazza


12/18/2007 10:50:41
i live in Australia, Adelaide and i cant find kno3 anywere

[Posted from : UNITED STATES]
cam


12/19/2007 9:47:19
I live in blackburn victoria and i want to get saltpeter to make a smoke bomb, where can i get it??

[Posted from : UNITED STATES]
prexel


1/4/2008 4:29:00
can i make a huge smoke bomb? if yes how big?


[Posted from : UNITED STATES]
Werner


1/8/2008 6:53:11
Anyone in brissy selling some kn03?

Brisbane australia

[Posted from : UNITED STATES]
the pyro


1/8/2008 6:53:39
i live in melbourne australia and wanna know were u can get some saltpeter (kno3) anyone know if you do can u please tell me

[Posted from : UNITED STATES]
mike


1/18/2008 10:45:17
hey im from melbourne australia i get my kno3 from my local chemist they dident have it in stock but they orded it for me.....

[Posted from : AUSTRALIA]
oQuillo


1/23/2008 10:00:20
hey i live on the outskirts of Brisbane, does anyone know where i can buy kno3, im working on a year 12 physics experiment involving rockets, and with out a credit card, and a mother who is shore that buying it over the net will result in a terrorism charge, its kinda hard, so any shop is brissy would be great .

thank hykron3@live.com.au

[Posted from : AUSTRALIA]
ben


1/25/2008 11:27:00
I'm from aussie too, near sydney

what's KN03 like compared to NH4CL04, and does anyone know to make this stuff?
oh and 14yr olds can make rockets! i've built a 1/10th scale V2 that got to 800m without DADDIES help etc.
still anyone know anything about NH4CLO4?

[Posted from : UNITED STATES]
mac69r@hotmail


2/5/2008 4:06:10
hey i must buy kno3 and i dont want to get caught by cops (due to previous encounters with them)and i cant find it anywhere btw im in Melbourne Australia near there airport and i just need help so can anyone sell/ship me some i cant buy the stuff of ebay due to new regulation(only 500g per shipment) so im kind of screwed can someone please help me

if you can help me email me my email is: mac69r@hotmail.com

[Posted from : UNITED STATES]
just me


2/14/2008 3:07:11
If you are an Aussie, and live in the desert, Kno3 will form naturally on the surface of the desert after heavy rains.  Just go and look for standing pools of water where some evaporation has occured.  The white matter ring the watery pool is a combination of salts.  Kno3 is one of the salts, but you will have to go through a recrystalization process to purify the material.  Look for the same white crust in cow pastures after a good rain and evaporation period.

By the way, the kid who made the 8 kilo rocket needs to start over.  Stick with balsa, light plastics, and paper stock when building a rocket.

Also, when making KnO3 propellants, use powdered sugar and mix your ingredients well in the out of doors.

[Posted from : UNITED STATES]
aslates


2/22/2008 4:59:13
hey alix could be a com...u...nis.t


[Posted from : UNITED STATES]
Eranga


2/23/2008 12:19:12
Try Adding Aluminium To The Potassium Nitrate, Formula For A Strong Solid Rocket Booster

[Posted from : UNITED STATES]
gniks


2/25/2008 4:06:24
i live in australia and have found heaps of kno3 try calling a ag supply or fertiliser shop and asking for 13-0-27 although i wouldnt recommend it for anything other than small smoke mixtures as it can be quite dangerous in the wrong hands

[Posted from : UNITED STATES]
Marcus


3/5/2008 4:00:37
Hows it goin? To all you people out there in australia, well adelaide only (sorry to everyone else) i have found a place where you can buy tonnes of kno3 for a pretty cheap price... Ok so if you live in adelaide, listen up. There is an awesome hydroponic store on marion road, across from ascot park primary school. Just tell them that you want to dissolve a used stump at home or something and you should have no problems... It is where i get all my shit from and it works beautifully.

[Posted from : UNITED STATES]
james


3/10/2008 5:18:03
thanks marcus I have been searching all night for this I will head there first thing.


[Posted from : AUSTRALIA]
D to the Ryder


3/18/2008 3:46:24
Hey i live in melbourne australia does any1 know where i can get potassium nitrate (salt peter)??????????????


[Posted from : UNITED STATES]
Alex


4/3/2008 10:32:55
(different to alex earlier)

ok i have a friend whos 17 and been making home made rockets since he was 15. and i think Hamish youd be the dumb arse for not believing him. ok an 8 kg rocket made out of steel will need some serious shit to get it off the ground, and 8000 Newton thrust from a hobby rocket is HUGE you noob.
flaming asside, KNO3 is easy as to get,
if you live in Aus you can get it from any nursery, its Ammonium Nitrate thats hard to get. you want greenhouse grade potassium nitrate, is fairly pure.

I get if from CRT (Coastal Rural Traders) cost $45 Aus for a 25kg bag.

if you really want to make rockets mail me, will tell you how, is not that hard.

but if you just want to make lulzy amounts of smoke n crap then do this!

60 parts kno3
40 parts sugar
(and to make even more smoke)
40 parts paraffin wax (or candle wax will do)

you can experiment with the kno3 to sugar ratios, more kno3 will make it burn faster, less slower, if it burns too fast though you wont get much smoke. so you can
add alittle bicarb soda (sodium bicarbonate, baking soda) it will slow the burn

but i cant be bothered, want lots of smoke, want NOW!

so you get a saucepan or something that can be headed on a stove (once again, electric is better as means no flames, but i dont bother)

*you put in the wax, and get it melting.
*once the wax is melted take it off the heat and add the sugar and potassium nitrate, mix it around with whatever is at hand, but not your hand (is hot after all)
* providing the mix is right, it should be a white concoction looking like mashed potato and be as moist as about playdough. if its too wet add more sugar and potassium nitrate (in the right ratios).
* once you have this mushy stuff you can do what you like with it, it will burn like crazy when its hot though so not advised.


you can also just mix sugar and kno3 together as powders to make a smoke bomb, try different ratios and see what happens, maybe some baking soda to slow it down


##afew notes

** best way to light is with sparklers **
once my smoke bomb is made i usually get a sparkler and cut off the wire on the end, then poke the sparkler in with the end you light sticking out. sometimes use multiple sparklers.


** smoke bombs are hydroscopic, being they will absorb moisture out of the air this is bad because they tent to stop working when they get wet, if you leave it for afew hours you may find it hard to light, afew sparklers on it should work. if not HAVE NO FEAR!
just mix some kno3 sugar together quickly (just the powders) and pour it onto the smoke bomb, then light the powderous mix. should get it going nice and good.


-----
Now some things i do with it

make kg of the stuff, put it in a pile of sand, light it and bury it with sand. it will still burn as the kno3 provides the oxygen and the sand stops it from spontaneously erupting into flames which means more smoke. it also looks like a cool volcano.

cut the tops of soft drink cans and pack it full while the mix is still warm and mouldable. then i use a stick, pencil or any kind of rod about as thick as your little finger and push it straight down the center of it ( then pull the thing out ofcourse) this gives a better way for the smoke to escape and works better.
stick in a sparkler and there you go.

you can also wrap it with LOTS of aluminium foil (yes there is an "i" before the "u" thats how the guy who discovered it spelt it.. you cant just go change these things!)

if you want you can just shape the warm mixture into a ball, and wrap foil around it till its about 1 cm thick, (doesnt have to be neat) then shove a couple of sparklers into it in a tight group and there you go. the foil will stop extra air getting to it so you shouldnt get flames which will mean more smoke, the smoke itself is relatively cool coming out of one of these but the ball will be damn hot! can kick it round though, makes big trails of smoke then lol.

----**************-----------
now for the best thing there is... "dan dan daaaan"

the WIGGINS BOMB!

VERY easy smoke bomb to make.
all a Wiggins Bomb is is basically a fking HUGE smoke bomb.( >= 2.4kg of smoke mix)

i set one of these off with my friends, are pretty hard to light because of size, if you light a small one first and put it on it it should work.

this baby burned for over 20 mins, we ended up leaving it to burn under a pile of sand (no chance of anything catching fire were we where)

next one i made was at my place, where me and a friend where bored one night and happened to make too much smoke mixture which inherently became a Wiggins Bomb.
it the beast, burned for over 1/2 hr (weighed in around 3kg)
so i got my laser light shows i have and shone them through it, looks soo cool.


my mail
mauler_w at hotmail dot com


[Posted from : AUSTRALIA]
god = no penis


4/3/2008 10:45:57
why do people keep asking where to get potassium nitrate after at least 10 people have mentioned that it can be bought at pharmacys, garden supply stores, maybe a farm, on the internet, and probly at some hardware stores with a garden section?

[Posted from : UNITED STATES]
stumpy lad


4/3/2008 11:11:44
people caint read too well...

whats the bet the very next post after mine asks the same thing ;-)

[Posted from : AUSTRALIA]
Alex


4/7/2008 8:05:43
..The bet wouldnt be too high if i where you!  whah!

maybe that because people, such as myself, read the first 1/2 dozen, cant be bothered reading through everything else and just dump a comment on the end :D

really some people are rather desperate to get some kno3 arent they? right now im having soo much fun collecting pine cones for making charcoal!.. really not that much fun lol. but the mixing with the sulfur and the sugar in the ball mill will be :P


and ty mod dude or dudess for re-fixering my email addy, didnt realise your not allowed to post a url or whatever.



[Posted from : AUSTRALIA]
dan


4/7/2008 8:09:54
alex, just a curtesy. havent done it for everyone. just when i can be bothered! spammers love to pick up emails with robots crawling through sites like this. i suggest you always disguise your email a little to make it difficult for em. you should see less spam in your inbox ;-)

[Posted from : UNITED STATES]
some dude


6/17/2008 9:05:10
yes alot of these materials are hard to find

get look on the net for ways around it..... there are many

[Posted from : AUSTRALIA]
man


6/26/2008 9:22:35
get kno3 it off ebay numb nuts

[Posted from : UNITED STATES]
syko


6/26/2008 9:23:08
Kno3 r how ever u wanna call it is in almost every stump remover and it should be n a white powder form almost looks exactly like sugar and about the rocket fuel question ,,ive tried but i didnt really compact mines enough so it just made a really long lasting smoke bomb but unlike others i culdnt cook mine inside and i didnt have any thing to do it outside with so i just mixed it in a two third ratio so if u use 3tablespoons of stump remover u add 2 tablespoons of sugar and mix really good REALLY GOOD other wise the sugar either will stop it from burning r not slow down the combustion nan itll just burn quikly and not very kool n e question just ask

[Posted from : UNITED STATES]
OMG


7/6/2008 2:09:45
I don't care about KNO3, thats easy to get i just cant get any sulfur, anyone know  where i can get some

[Posted from : UNITED STATES]
TrueBlueAussie


7/24/2008 10:00:02
uum, read every comment, still can not get any kno3 from those places

I used to buy it from www.aquagreen.com.au but i dont think they sell it anymore :(, i know aswell you can bet it from Auschem.com but if you want a rip of there is where to get it lol ($9.95 4 500g & p/h another 10)!!!!

plz dont knock me as I have been trying really hard to find kno3. If i find some soon i will post as soon as I can

True Blue Aussie

[Posted from : UNITED STATES]
b dog


8/8/2008 3:29:12
when i go to the garden store what do i ask for??                   umm can i have some kno3?? or what  do i say??

[Posted from : UNITED STATES]
Bookizzle


8/16/2008 2:59:13
ey auzzie
i am also from Australia Melbourne in fact. where do you get your pottasium nitrate from??

[Posted from : UNITED STATES]
outlander


9/8/2008 9:56:48
Sulfur can be bought easily from bunnings, at 99% purity. Its in the gardening isle. Potasium nitrates getting harder to find htough, already checked local bunnings and garden world = nothing.

[Posted from : AUSTRALIA]
walton


10/5/2008 3:40:58
I too tried bunnings and found nothing. went to nursery and chemist, they had none either. yet to try crt or ag supply. also, if you live on a farm or know someone who does they might be able to get it. maybe a hydroponics or fish shop

[Posted from : UNITED STATES]
boyce


10/13/2008 2:37:12
i have 2 kilo for sale 40.00

[Posted from : UNITED STATES]
Jack


10/14/2008 1:17:03
Sulphur can be bought from most garden shops, sometimes labeled as flowers of sulphur, which is just a fine grade.

Potassium nitrate can usually be purchased from Ebay, or Ebay.com.au for Australia. Search for it, there is usually someone selling it.
Try online chemical stores, for example in australia:

http://www.auschems.com/osc/product_info.php?cPath=21&products_id=28
This website also sells sulphur.

Believe it or not, it is actually not illeagal to purchase potassium nitrate for your own purposes eg for making gunpowder, and you are not obligated to reveal what you plan to do with it. Do not be afraid to ask.

BTW Hamish and Alex: The equation F=MA  \  A=F/M is used for working out force or acceleration. You must have two of these variables to work out the third. 'FON BRUNE' has given you only the mass, 8kg. All you are trying to do is work out how much force is required to lift this rocket. Gravity is pulling the rocket down with a force of 80N (78.48N if the acceleration of gravity is taken at 9.81ms-2). Therefore any thrust force exceeding 80N would create and unbalanced force upward. Any unbalanced force creates an acceleration, meaning the rocket would take off.
A G-H class motor is capable of an average thrust of greater than 80N, so anything around this size or larger should be sufficient.
I have no idea where you got 8000N from, as this would indicate a weight of 800kgs, nearly a tonne.


[Posted from : UNITED STATES]
Jack


10/14/2008 1:17:28
'FON BRUNE', if you happen to read this, I would suggest purchasing a rocket motor commercially, at least to start with. If you wish to make your own solid fuel motors, a rocket motor kit would be the best place to start, as it gives you all the parts required, and the 'recipies' for various rocket fuels

[Posted from : UNITED STATES]
Camo


12/17/2008 6:47:04
I live in perth aus and i found the stuff easy , just made a few phone calls.

If you cant find it yourself then you probably shouldnt be playing with the stuff

Not hard to find!!!!!

[Posted from : UNITED STATES]
perth guy


12/30/2008 12:18:00
i heard u can make salt pete r from dried urine, or it is found in stalagmites in caves


[Posted from : UNITED STATES]
ben


1/9/2009 3:53:51
you can buy kno3 in australia here:
http://www.bargain-mart.com.au/pyro.php

[Posted from : UNITED STATES]
davo


3/5/2009 2:54:16
Kno3 in Aust,
Got to bunnings, (or anywhere really) get a pack of "thrive, Soluble flower and fruit"

It's only 26% KN03, but better than nothing and better than a visit from the feds....

disolve half the packet in HOT water then put in the freezer, remove first batch of ice that forms on the top and put into a seperate tray, evaporate off...The xcls that form are KN03, you can further purify, but I'll leave that up to the more chemically savvy...

This will get you KN03 in a pretty pure state.

P.S Fon Brune...stick to Sodium chloride and sugar, ...make sure you bang it into the tube real hard, the less of you mongs in the world the better.(really a steel rocket? you're part of the Gaza strip rocketry club I assume?)



[Posted from : UNITED STATES]
sydney


4/21/2009 2:22:16
how much hot water you have to dissovle into thrive?

[Posted from : United States]
sydney


4/21/2009 2:23:21
how much hot water you have to dissovle into thrive?

[Posted from : United States]
chetan


5/2/2009 5:08:02
can i know frm where in india i can get kno3 in cheaper rate

[Posted from : United States]
jake


5/17/2009 5:56:41
i live in aus in sydney and i just bought kno3 for $20 from aus chems


[Posted from : United States]
justin


6/25/2009 6:17:02
i ripped open this instant cool pack and found white little ball things, are they salt peter??
Hermes


6/30/2009 6:45:42
I live in Alice Springs,I am trying to get some kno3 and Aus chems does not ship to the NT., Does anybody knows where to get it in or close to Alice?
Gaz


6/30/2009 7:01:38
Barnyard Trading in Darwin used to sell it. There might be a store in Alice Springs. They probably take your vehicles rego number but there's nothing wrong with making rockets.

Now Howard's out and he got to invade Iraq there is no need for them to scare the public anymore by creating fear for the public. Normal people have an interest in hobby rockets and making things go bang and making harmless smoke bombs, so it's all back to normal. You won't make any waves by going to buy some KNO3 now. They know us Aussies just aren't very politically motivated. Hehe.


PS. It's fireworks night here in the Territory (self government day) in a few days. Excellent. That have anything to do with why you need some KNO3? Hehe. I might do the same.
Alex


7/6/2009 4:22:56
@ Justin

noooooo that is ammonium nitrate :P
good for big bangs, needs a detonator. 'should' work for making smoke, havent tried, its basically just a stronger oxidizer than potassium nitrate
Jupiter


8/30/09 1:47:46 PM
Hi exuse me but is K2SO4 explosive?
addict


9/13/09 5:51:41 PM
Potassium nitrate is easy to buy.  Why spend the time to make it when you can buy it for dang cheap.  The process is complicated and you need to do a little research to do it properly. www.d3scene.com/.../18942-how-make-potassium-nitrate.html is a good site.  another good one http://potassium-salts.blogspot.com.
JAYROD


9/26/09 11:46:56 AM
I can guarantee you that an 8kg rocket of those dimensions wont see much performance with even APCP
Scarface


11/17/09 5:09:18 PM
A) You cant get KNO3 Fertaliser in its base form without a permit
B) you also cant get stump remover accelerant
C)it is ILLEGAL to import KNO3 the fed police will come to your house and rape you
D) IT IS legal however to buy it after its already been imported. chemists sometimes have it, and there a websites that sell it inside australia. try google people.

i live in brisbane by the way.
swapi


12/24/09 11:53:11 AM
any idea whr wil i get kno3 in india. i asked in plant store, the lady said yes but her boss said no after looking at me. i told them i want it for fertilizers.
Jpoopdog


1/3/10 2:17:44 PM
I heard that grass clippings absorb nitrates and that if white powder (various nitrates) appears on grass near the bottom of the pile ,by weight the pile is 0.1-0.05% nitrate

How do i extract this and convert to potassium nitrate, or do all nitrates work the same

Ps im aussie
And if ye be questing fer sulfur id be wreaping the bounty of anti fungicide tomato yeast , or for ye scalywag girlys ,get rose dust

Both be 85-99 percent raw sulfur
davo


2/17/10 3:38:36 PM
how much hot water you have to dissovle into thrive?

use ~ 2ltrs of hot water, just add the thrive untill the solution becomes supersaturated, i.e, you can't disolve anymore. It's easy.
dilberry


2/27/10 12:23:14 AM
go to bunnings/home depot and read the labels people. half the garden aisle is  atleast 60% kno3. also best recipes r on youtube.
Jpoopdog


3/6/10 9:20:13 PM
Haha, noobs, i use kmno4.
I buy it at any pharmacy , usualy its only sold behind the counter but at all three stores they do have it xept one that sells it on the shelves, but ive got it at all and im only 15. A
Mix of aluminum powdr + kmno4 makes by weight a more powerful flash powder than potasium nitrate can, dilute w sulfur and its rocket fuel

Also mr muscle drano is 10% sodium nitrate, easily refracted to kn03.

Lastly ,if you mix charcoal with any liquid containing kno3, it becomes near impossible to seperate, unles it gets real hot, so try using it to catch nitrates, it works for me.

Ps im an aussie
mike


5/6/10 12:53:02 AM
www.gardendirect.co.uk for salt peter 1kg 2kg or 50kg
chris


5/10/10 10:05:31 AM
well i live in germany and i know how hard it is to come across even the tiniest amounts of KNO3, therefore i simply make my own. all the ingredients can be bought online from anywhere on the globe, and while this method isnt the cheapest, its a sure way of producing KNO3 if you have no other way of obtaining it.

you will need:
-a few instant cold packs (the one-time use ones that have the water pouches in them). these almost always contain ammonium nitrate, which is what you need.
-salt substitute, which is pure potassium chloride (KCl)
-coffee filters

making it:
weigh out 40g of the ammonium nitrate and dissolve all of it in destilled water and filter off all the insoluble products that you dont need. next add 37g of the KCl straight to the liquid and gently heat it so that all the salt dissolves. you may need to filter it again because some salt substitutes have insoluble anti-caking agents that you dont need. next place the container with the liquid into the freezer and allow it to sit for about an hour to an hour and a half. you will see large crystals of KNO3 that have crystallised out of the solution. pour off the remaining liquid, rinse the crystals with ICE-COLD(!) water and allow them to dry.
joyce smith


5/22/10 8:34:28 AM
i have very litle amount of potasium nitrate for sale
get to e through joycesmith@hotmail.fr
adam


6/16/10 3:40:34 PM
on ebay fags type kno3 search it bing first thing theres all amounts from 1kg to 20kg
ronie ardioes


7/9/10 5:48:47 AM
kno3 di indonesia mudah sekali mendapatkannya,, harga kno3 di indonesia berkisar us$3/kg. . .
righteous


7/13/10 5:48:01 AM
Hi The best place to get KNO3 is to buy it from a company  that supplies it. Ortica in Australia. It is legal to own  but remember how people subsequently use it will see if it stays legal. The earlier posts about making rockets with metal bodies or rocket motors and smoke bombs whatever are the activities that will soon end up giving the nazi state a reason to ban its private ownership. So  dont do anything that will jeopardise that right we still possess. If your making rockets fire them at an approved venue or set up a venue. You could test motors in a remote private location on the ground i imagine. A rocket needfs to be light for height metal is a silly thing to make it from. Read up on the hobby there are numerous good sites Richard Nakkas one for instance on pvc motors. I cant stress it enough you have a right to use this stuff if you use it safely,  stand up for yourself, and dont bring the hobby into disrepute by doing unsocial acts that require police presence. Inform your  neighbours of your activities so they dont ring police and do things safely. Experimenting in a backyard suburban block might not be wise see if you can organise a remote place and store chemicals safely
Dinosaur


7/23/10 9:38:21 AM
Besides Rights they also come with responsibilitys to be aware of your nieghbor
and act in a civil manner.To often thesze days we are losing our rights due to a few who cannot seem to handle the responsibilities that rights bring with them.
But of course there are circumstances where we have to remember we are at war(USA) and our enemys will take advanrtage of every right we have and in addition to the damage they do they also change our ways of life and its freedoms.Every time we are attaCKED new laws further restrict our freedom.
johnny west


11/30/10 12:30:32 PM
if anyone here is from adelaide, go to paul munns lawn store on brighton road, they sell kilo bags for about 10 bucks
jake


1/7/11 12:40:14 PM
I found some potassium nitrate online but the prices they charge are pretty extreme, I was wondering if anyone knows where to obtain potassium nitrate in Victoria, Melbourne - Preferably in larger amounts (10kg+) from any gardening shops or wholesalers?

Thanks.
linguini


3/21/11 9:16:12 PM
Im in adelaide, i found it quite easy to get from the hydroponics on marion rd, the price is ok, ive had a beter prive from a place in mt compass, but they since closed down due to police interaction with less than legal actions. i bought it without a prob and im 17. just explain to them what its for (rocket fuel) and not some sort of bomb jacket
linguini


3/21/11 9:16:15 PM
Im in adelaide, i found it quite easy to get from the hydroponics on marion rd, the price is ok, ive had a beter prive from a place in mt compass, but they since closed down due to police interaction with less than legal actions. i bought it without a prob and im 17. just explain to them what its for (rocket fuel) and not some sort of bomb jacket
SomeButter


8/1/11 5:43:07 PM
Yeah so to make your own Potassium Nitrate follow the following steps:

You will need:
- Imitation salt (Nu-Salt)(No-Salt)
Make sure that it has NO SODIUM, only POTASSIUM.

-Instant Cold Packs.( Make sure they use Ammonium Nitrate )

-A scale.


Process:

-Open The cold pack and remove the water pouch, Measure out 40 grams of ammonium nitrate and place in a cup or bowl, then add 100 ml of water and stir until all ammonium nitrate has dissolved.

-In a small pot put 37 grams of the Imitation Salt.

-Filter the mix of ammonium nitrate with water into the small pot.

-Heat the mixture to a low temperature and stir until all is dissolved.

-Once dissolved remove from heat and place in the freezer.

It will take about 1 hour 30 minuets before the Potassium nitrate crystals begin to form, once they are done forming simply discard the remaining liquid.

If you wish to produce in larger proportions, simply scale up the ingredients.

Hope this helped.
LOLMAN


8/14/11 12:27:04 AM
HEY PEEPS i im curious if i were to buy it from ebay , i live in sydney by the way. would the cops come knowcking on my door and if they did and i said im using it for rocket fuel would that be a just excuse?
David


9/15/11 2:24:25 PM
listen i couldent get kno3 ether and i live in the unitede states ive found that any stump remover will work fine for rockets, most countrys have a menards home improvment center just go to where the chain saws are its located in that area its about six dollars a pound, and its good stuff, works right out of the bottle just grind it a bit with a blinder, a formula you might try is 65 grams or% Kno3 and 35grams or % of confection sugar its already ground fine, iron oxide is used in makeing bricks it has to be ordered in 10 pound bags, thay will last you nthe rest of your life and your kids too,go easy on the iron oxide just a 1/4 tea spoon, reason i say go easy it speeds up the burn rate quite a bit to about half the normal rate, i mix up about 130 grams at a time in that i add about a hafe a tea spoon of iron oxide, and by the way iron oxide is not rust like most beleave its a oxidizer only and a colloring agent you can get it 9in many differant colors, green yellow red brown like that,, amonum preclorate is not a safe perpellent to work with its unpredictable, and never ever heat it it will blow up in your face and could kill you, heat is bad on amonum preclorate and ive found that sigar rockets are just as powerful i know this by the size of the nozzle being used its only a 1/8 inch where as on a sugar rocket the nozzle has to be 5/32 inch minumum that alomost three times biger or is it two times biger lol well its biger, a two inch sugar rocket has a 1/4 inch hole a one inch sugar rocket has a 8 mm hole5/8 insugar rocket has a 6 mm hole 1/2 inch sugar rocket has a 5/32 inch hole, and so on..! hope this helps , have fun rockets for ever a hobby for all..!
Jono


9/25/11 10:39:03 PM
If you want some kno3 but cannot find it at All substitute for some kclo3
It can be made by electrolysis, bleach or drain cleaner (NaOH)

Miniature chlorate cell

This webpage describes the construction of a very small chlorate cell, which can be used inside without any problem and which can be operated somewhere in the corner of a small room. The cell can be used to create research quantities of chlorates, yields of approximately 30 grams per day can be achieved routinely. This is not enough for the devoted pyro-enthusiast, but it definitely is worth the effort when one wants to do some interesting chemistry experiments or wants to do some small scale syntheses which require the use of potassium chlorate.

       

The cost of the cell is around $30 for all the materials, excluding the power supply and the chemicals. The cell can be used many times and in theory it can be used to make several kilos of chlorates, when one has the patience to do so.





Required chemicals:

potassium chloride
potassium dichromate
hydrochloric acid (optional, one can do without sacrificing some current efficiency)
Required equipment:

MMO/DSA anode and a titanium strip which serves as cathode. Sometimes these can be purchased as a set, ready for use in a chlorate cell (e.g. on eBay). The image shows the titanium cathode at the left and the MMO anode at the right.
             

If the ready to use anodes cannot be purchased, then there still is the option of purchasing MMO on titanium substrate mesh and make an anode yourself (e.g. search on eBay with keywords MMO mesh). This, however, requires cutting the mesh in the right size (which is not difficult when a good metal saw is used) and welding a titanium strip to the mesh. The latter requires very hot spot welding and may be hard to achieve for many people.

Power supply, capable of delivering 5 A at a fixed voltage of 5 volts. An old PC power supply can be converted for this purpose. Very often these can be salvaged from an old PC or obtained for free from a friend or from a scrap yard. For the purpose of powering a chlorate cell one must also keep the 5V of the power supply.
Good glass bottle with a sturdy, corrosion resistant plastic cap.
PVC flexible tube with a diameter of appr. 6 mm.
A miniature drill with a diameter of just 1 mm.
Sharp knife for cutting hard plastic.
Filter paper and strongly absorbing paper tissue.
Heat-resistant glass beaker of 150 ... 250 ml.
Hot plate, used for heating the beaker of 150 ... 250 ml.
Safety:

Potassium dichromate is toxic and a carcinogen. However, for operating the cell, only a very small quantity is needed. It can be left out, but that will reduce the cell efficiency quite a lot.
Hydrochloric acid is corrosive.
Disposal:

There will be no real waste besides some rinse water which is absorbed by filter paper and paper tissue. Remains of a single run can be reused as starting material for a next run. In this way, all of the used potassium chloride is converted to chlorate and most of the potassium dichromate from a single run is recycled as well.









Preparation of the lid of the cell

When one is doing a small electrolysis experiment, then one usually does this in an open beaker, with a set of electrodes immersed in the solution. This is fine for an experiment which takes a few minutes and runs at a few hundreds of mA, but when one is electrolyzing a solution for hours or even days, at currents of multiple amperes, then a lot of gas is produced. The gas is produced in the form of many tiny bubbles and these produce a dense aerosol above the liquid. This forms a mist, which spreads around the beaker and in time, everything will be covered by a very thin layer of corrosive stuff. During the process, not only salt (or potassium chloride) will be in the mist, but also chlorate, hypochlorite and possibly free chlorine. This mist is amazingly corrosive to metal objects nearby. Metal tools, the nearby power supply, metal parts of furniture, everything will rust like hell when exposed to this kind of mist. So, there MUST be a lid on the cell.

The cell, used in this experiment, is a very simple one, but it has proven to be very effective. A sturdy Schott Duran bottle is taken with an equally sturdy screw cap. The cap is made of a blue plastic, which can withstand temperatures of up to 140 C and which withstands strong bleach solutions for long times.

Both the anode and the cathode are welded on a titanium strip with a width of approximately 1 cm and a thickness of 1 mm. With a tiny drill, holes were made in the cap in a pattern, such that 2 lines are made. With a sharp knife the holes were connected, such that the strips can be pushed through the cap. This requires quite some force and one must be careful not to hurt oneself with the knife. The holes in the shape of the lines must be made of such a width that the titanium strips can be pushed through it, but there must be some resistance left, otherwise they will slide through the screw cap.

In the middle of the cap, a 6 mm wide hole must be drilled. A small PVC tube of 6 mm width can be pushed through this hole. Again some force is needed to push the tube through the hole.

The result is as follows:





When the electrodes are pushed through the cap, then assure that when the cap is screwed on the bottle, that the electrodes do not touch the bottom, they should be just above it. Still, this kind of connection is not good enough. The mist, produced during electrolysis will be so dense and there will be such a strong flow of gas, that it simply will be pushed along the tiny leaks around the electrodes. So, the space between the electrodes and the cap must be closed with some glue or resin.

The following two pictures show the construction from below and from above. The view from above shows the glue around the titanium strips. This closes the leaks around the strips, but even this construction could not prevent some leaking. There was no spray around the cell, but there was some leaking of liquid around the titanium strips. This is because the glue does not really stick to the titanium strips, it can easily be peeled off.

 

                     

The little PVC tube is there to allow the gases to flow away from the cell. The length of the tube is approximately 50 cm. This PVC tube has proven to be quite resistant to the hot fumes leaving the cell. Even after operating 50 hours with a hot cell, the tube looks as transparent as when it was purchased.

The cell, when closed, looks as follows:

 

The distance between the electrodes inside the bottle is approximately 2.5 cm (1 inch). From experimenting it was found that this is a nice distance when the cell needs to be operated from a simple 5 volt power supply without current control. The concentrated solution of potassium chloride provides a certain resistance, such that at 5 volt between the electrodes there is a current of approximately 3.5 A. This causes quite some heating of the cell, but that is good. A warm (but not superhot) cell promotes formation of chlorate from hypochlorite. An MMO anode can easily withstand a hot solution.

The distance between the electrodes, however, is not critical. If your construction is somewhat different and there is 3 cm or just 2 cm between the electrodes, then that will be OK as well. It just operates at a somewhat lower or a somewhat larger current. Just aim at a distance of 2.5 cm between the electrodes and then you certainly will end up with something useful.





Inside use of the cell, use of vent tube and scrubbing chlorine

When the cell is used inside, then one must lead the gases from the cell either outside, or through a beaker of water in which some sodium hydroxide is dissolved (the solution only needs to be dilute, e.g. one teaspoon dissolved in 100 ml of water). The sodium hydroxide holds back any chlorine, any mist also is held back by the liquid in the beaker and a colorless and odorless gas mix bubbles to the surface. This gas mix is mainly hydrogen and in the later phases of the electrolysis process it also contains quite some oxygen (volume ratio hydrogen : oxygen ≈ 6 : 1). The construction is simple and effective and allows operation of the cell inside, even in a normal living room. One just has to assure that the end of the vent tube is several cm under the surface of the solution of sodium hydroxide.



It might be tempting to collect the hydrogen from the cell in a separate large glass unit or do funny experiments with it, such as connecting a glass tube to the vent tube and lighting the hydrogen gas, but this should NEVER be done. There can be so much oxygen mixed with the hydrogen, that flash-back into the cell occurs and all if it explodes. There is enough explosion force to shatter the complete cell, especially if a normal glass jar is used with 50 ml or so of hydrogen/oxygen mix in it!





Operation of the cell

The cell must be operated with a concentrated solution of potassium chloride. Preparation of such a concentrated solution can be done as follows:

Take 35 to 40 grams of potassium chloride and put this in a beaker.
Add water, such that the volume becomes 130 ml. This is not the same as adding 130 ml water! You have to top up to 130 ml.
Dissolve the potassium chloride. This may be difficult when it is cold. Just for convenience put the beaker in a pan with some warm tap water. This makes dissolving of the potassium chloride more easy.
If fertilizer grade potassium chloride is used (so called N-P-K rating equal to 0-0-60), then it might be necessary to filter the solution. The solution, transferred to the cell must be absolutely clear, otherwise you will have difficulty to separate solid crap from the potassium chlorate formed in the cell.
Transfer 100 ml of solution to the cell.
Keep the remaining 30 ml, it is needed to top up the liquid during electrolysis. To this 30 ml of liquid add 0.5 ml of 10% hydrochloric acid and mix this. Set this mix aside for later use.
Put the end of the vent tube several cm under the surface of a dilute solution of sodium hydroxide in a separate beaker.
Connect anode and cathode and apply 5 V. If a higher voltage is used, then use appropriate series resistors or power diodes to limit the current through the cell (how this must be done for a 12V power supply is described here). Never apply too high a voltage to the cell without limiting resistors. This will damage the anode! Also assure that the polarity of the applied voltage is correct. Failure to do so WILL destroy the electrodes!
When all is setup correctly, then the cell will start bubbling and it slowly digests the chloride to make chlorate from it. Bubbles of gas will leave the vent tube in the beaker with dilute solution of sodium hydroxide. Initially there may be a faint smell of chlorine, but soon the bubbles of gas in the beaker will be totally odorless. The cell can be operated inside, just assure that there is some ventilation.

 

There will be vigorous bubbling and soon the cell will heat up. It is good if it becomes warm, but it should not become so hot that one cannot bear touching it. During operation, the cell became too hot and it was decided to cool the cell by putting it in a water bath.

 

When the cell is operated in this way, it can be left unattended for many hours. The only thing one needs to do every 10 hours or so is topping up the liquid in the cell with some fresh solution of potassium chloride. The volume of liquid slowly decreases due to formation of hydrogen and oxygen and due to losses through evaporation. Quite some water vapor leaves the cell through the vent tube!





Increasing cell efficiency by reducing back-reduction at the cathode

The vent tube in the cell has a nice side effect. It allows one to see how fast the cell is operating, by counting bubbles leaving the vent tube. This can go too fast, but when a digital camera is used and a little movie is made, then one can easily count the number of bubbles per 15 seconds or so.

While the cell was operated, there was a slow decrease of the number of bubbles, delivered through the vent tube. After two hours of operation, the number of bubbles per second was only a fraction of the number of bubbles, produced just after powering up. It slowed down more and more! The cell also was running excessively hot, even when it was cooled in a water bath. The current still was around 3.5 A, but much less hydrogen was produced. So, the question is, where is all the energy going?

Ideally, at the cathode there is the following reaction: 2H2O + 2e → H2 + 2OH

Hydrogen escapes from the cell and hydroxide ion remains behind in solution.

At the anode, chlorine is produced. Initially, the chlorine bubbles away from the solution. The effect of this is that the solution becomes alkaline, due to the unbalanced hydroxide, produced at the cathode at the same time. A few minutes after power on, chlorine hardly bubbles out of solution anymore, but it reacts with the hydroxide, giving chloride and hypochlorite:

Cl2 + 2OH → Cl + ClO + H2O

An internet survey revealed that at low current densities (less than 200 mA per cm2, which certainly is the case in this miniature cell) on a titanium cathode there will be an important side reaction, in which hypochlorite ion is reduced back to chloride:

ClO + 2e + H2O → Cl + 2OH

So, the hypochlorite which is produced with great effort (from chlorine at the anode and hydroxide, formed from water at the cathode) is converted back to chloride. This reaction is exothermic, the energy needed to make hypochlorite from chloride is now converted to heat.

Adding a small amount of chromate or dichromate to the cell significantly reduces the effect of back-reduction. So, the cell was opened and a few ml of water were added in which approximately 200 mg of potassium dichromate was dissolved. After mixing and powering on again this looks as follows:

 

The dichromate leads to formation of a very thin (nanometer size) layer of chromium hydroxide around the titanium cathode. This tiny layer is a very effective shield, which prevents hypochlorite ions to touch the cathode, while it still allows positive ions and water to touch the cathode. It does add some ohmic resistance, but the back-reduction of hypochlorite is very effectively suppressed.

After this modification, two remarkable effects were noticed:

Hydrogen production more than doubled while the current remained nearly the same, so in practice the increase of ohmic resistance only is small.
After half an hour or so, the cell and also the cooling water around the cell were much cooler. This can be explained, because now there is not an exothermic reduction of hypochlorite anymore.
Two little movies were made, one movie just before adding the dichromate, and the other movie after adding the dichromate. The difference is striking:

video of hydrogen bubbling before adding dichromate
video of hydrogen bubbling after adding dichromate
Download size of these videos is approximately 2.5 MByte each.

So, after adding the dichromate, all electric current again is put in making hydrogen at the cathode and oxidizing things at the anode and no or only little back-reduction occurs after this modification.





Increasing cell efficiency by controlling the pH

Another (less severe) problem with the cell is the buildup of hypochlorite in solution, which is not converted to chlorate in solution, but is oxidized further at the anode. The mechanism is explained in this section. The first step towards chlorate is the formation of chlorine, followed by formation of hypochlorite:

Chloride ion is converted to chlorine at the anode: 2Cl  2e → 2Cl → Cl2
At a pH close to 6, the chlorine disproportionates as follows: Cl2 + OH → HOCl + Cl
At a pH close to 10, the chlorine disproportionates as follows: Cl2 + 2OH → ClO + Cl + H2O
As the reaction equations demonstrate, independent of pH, two electrons are needed for formation of a single hypochlorite ion. At the cathode, at the same time one molecule of H2 is formed.

When no special precautions are taken, then the pH in the cell slowly approaches a certain fairly alkaline value somewhere around 10 until some equilibrium value is reached.

It turns out that there are two main mechanisms for formation of chlorate in the cell. The main (and most desirable) mode of chlorate production is disproportionation of hypochlorite to chlorate, which frequently is written as:

3ClO → 2Cl + ClO3

This reaction is very slow, even at elevated temperatures and in practice it does not contribute to chlorate formation in a cell. However, when pH is around 6, then a large part of the hypochlorite is present as hypochlorous acid and then the reaction proceeds much faster, especially at a somewhat elevated temperature (e.g. 60 C):

2HOCl + ClO → 2Cl + ClO3 + 2H+

In a cell, which is allowed to run for a long time without pH-control, the pH becomes much higher than 6. Chlorate production hardly occurs in solution at such a high pH and hence the concentration of hypochlorite increases. The concentration becomes so high that besides discharge of chloride ions at the anode the discharge of ClO ions also becomes an important reaction. The discharge of ClO ions immediately is followed by reaction with water and rearrangement of atoms. This process is remarkably complex and still not fully understood, but the total net reaction equation can be written as follows:

6ClO + 3H2O  6e → 6ClO + 3H2O → 2ClO3 + 4Cl + 6H+ + 1O2

Already 12 electrons were needed to make 6ClO (2 electrons per hypochlorite ion) and now another 6 electrons are needed to make 2ClO3. So, in total 18 electrons are needed for making 2ClO3. This makes up a total of 9 electrons per chlorate ion. This is a loss of efficiency, because when the chlorate is produced in the solution by disproportionation of hypochlorite, then only 6 electrons are needed per chlorate ion. By careful pH control one can increase cell efficiency. In this small and simple cell it is decided not to do so. Careful pH control is fairly complicated and laborious. So, in this cell the 33% lower efficiency of 9 electrons per chlorate ion is accepted. For an industrial setup, cell efficiency is very important, but for a hobby setup, a somewhat lower efficiency still is acceptable, one just needs to wait a little longer before a crop of potassium chlorate can be taken out of the cell. So, no real pH-control was done, but when the cell had to be opened anyway for topping up the liquid, then some acid was added as well. This strategy is a decent compromise between complexity of operating the cell and efficiency.





Behavior of cell during its operation

While the cell is running it remains warm, but not really hot (assuming that some potassium dichromate is added). Hydrogen gas is produced at the cathode at a high speed, and there also is some oxygen at the anode. Already after a few hours of continuous operation you can see formation of a crystal layer at the bottom of the cell.

Sodium chlorate from salt

Well as sodium chlorate is an easily obtainable alernative to potassium nitrate i decided to make a thread on how to synthesize it:

NaClO3 from NaCl:
you will need:
A jar to hold around 200ml of water.
A bag of table salt (around 500g).
A method of getting an output of around 5V DC.
A graphite anode and steel cathode.
Wires to connect the rods to the power source.


To do this get the jar and fill it with 200ml of water, Then dissolve table salt in it till it can't dissolve anymore.
Hook up the anode and cathode to the power source and put it in the water.
leave overnight or till the reaction stops. This will leave NaClO3 in the water.

Notes
Remember that if you use anything higer than 5V your will get Cl gas given off and that will be very bad.
H2 gas is also given off which is also very explosive so do this in a ventilated area. Sodium chlorate can be used in place of potassium chlorate.

Potassium chlorate bleach

Take one gallon of bleach, place it in the container, and begin heating it. While this solution heats, weigh out 63 grams of potassium chloride and add this to the bleach being heated. Constantly check the solution being heated with the hydrometer, and boil until you get a reading of 1.3. If using a battery hydrometer, boil until you read a FULL charge.

Take the solution and allow it to cool in a refrigerator until it is between room temperature and 0C. Filter out the crystals that have formed and save them. Boil this solution again and cool as before. Filter and save the crystals.

Take the crystals that have been saved, and mix them with distilled water in the following proportions: 56 grams per 100 milliliters distilled water. Heat this solution until it boils and allow to cool. Filter the solution and save the crystals that form upon cooling. This process of purification is called "fractional crystallization". These crystals should be relatively pure potassium chlorate.

The chemistry:

3NaClO + heat = NaClO3 + 2NaCl
NaClO3 + KCl = KClO3 + NaCl
This part is optional
2KClO3 + H2SO4 = K2SO4 + 2HClO3
4HClO3 + heat = 3HClO4 + HCl
HClO4 + KCl = KClO4 + HCl
Or
KClO3 + H2O2 = KClO4 + H2O

Potassium perchlorate is much better and stabler than potassium chlorate so please convert it from KClO3 to KClO4 as soon as possible.

You can substitute the potassium chloride with any other chloride salt, but don't use ones such as ammonium chloride (made from ammonia mixed with hydrochloric acid) because you will get that chlorate instead, and probably lose your house. Instead make the perchlorate of something else first, then exchange ions.

*Powder these to the consistency of face powder, and heat gently to drive of all moisture.
anon


10/28/11 11:46:09 AM
need a very detailed plan for a good smoke mix for signal flare design and a possible sustitute for organic powder dye (if possible) also the best way and easy way to make potassium nitrate (without being looked at by the afp) coz its bullshit, you cant buy straight potassium nitrate in 99% of australia annymoree mail.  junkmonkey@live.com.au
Tim


11/26/11 3:53:35 PM
I sell it (if your in australia) at $7.99 per KG. Grab me at tim@actionvideostudios.tk
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